The Point of Despair

I purchased a Norton 4k/8k about ten days ago, thinking it was time for me to learn how to hone my own razors. After nine days of practice, lapping, trying to discern the right pressure (or the lack thereof), concentrating on the technique suggested by the videos posted by members of this board, my blade is as dull as a spoon. All I wanted to do was touch up my edge. Now I'm regretting having ever picked up the hone in the first place.

I'm almost to the point of giving up. It appears as though honing is a skill I shall never acquire. Did anyone reach such a low when trying to learn the art?

We call that reverse honing and it's a difficult art to master like a musician trying to play and inserting wrong notes.

Just kidding of course.

You need to figure out what you are doing wrong. Obviously if you do it correctly you will get the results you need. Also, some guys come to this with previous honing ability and some catch on very quickly. For most of us it just takes time and sometimes razors are ruined before we figure out what we are doing wrong. You might want to see about hooking up with another member for some personal assistance. If you are someone who is all thumbs at this you might need that. Otherwise it's just practice, practice,practice but you have to do it the right way.

In the end it deals with strokes, and pressure and what the individual blade needs. it's really an art and need to be learned step by step.

There are some razors that hone very easily and others are a challenge. Are you trying to hone a challenge razor? If so, start with a well known pedigree vintage blade that is hollow grind that is not too far gone especially as you are setting bevel with 4k and that takes a long time on a razor that needs much work setting bevel. Hope this helps.

Yes, definitely. At the start I regularly came away from the hones with a duller blade than I'd started with.

I'm still a newb, and get rather inconsistent results, but it has got to the point where I can usually shave with my own edges. And put on aftershave without screaming.

The only advice I have is not about technique (sounds like you're already getting that from the horse's mouth) but about approach. The two things that helped me when I got miserable about my lack of skills were:

- give it a rest for a day or two. If you go to the hones with foreboding, it won't work. Wait until you feel good, and have read something new you want to try out. (It doesn't work if you're tired or in a hurry, either, I find.)

- Change what you're doing. Pretty much anyhow. Doing x-strokes? try circles. Try different pressures (I mean, always light, but vary it - light plus a little, light minus a little). Tape/more tape/no tape. More torque/less torque.

It'll improve, don't worry. :)

try a DMT1200 Diamond Plate for bevel setting..you CAN set your bevels on the 8k..but it will take awhile

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rev

I purchased a Norton 4k/8k about ten days ago, thinking it was time for me to learn how to hone my own razors. . . . All I wanted to do was touch up my edge. . . .

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I suspect you were doing more than the razors needed.

You don't say how you were tracking your progress. IMHO, a good 10x loupe lets you see what you're doing as you're doing it. It's hard to figure out what you're doing wrong, if you're working blind.

10-20 laps on an 8K stone, with very light pressure, followed by
. . . 10-20 laps on a CrOxide pasted strop, followed by
. . . a good (100-lap) stropping,
may be enough to bring an edge from "almost sharp" to "sharp".

Charles

PS -- my life became easier when I decided that something finer than 8K -- either CrOxide, or a fine barber hone -- was a _necessary_ part of my honing cycle. I'm not able to get a good edge off an 8K stone. I figure it's my fault, not the 8K's.

Rev, giving up after only ten days of trying? You can't be serious. Of course a thing like honing takes time to learn.

Don't give up. Because giving up is something you can only regret. Regret for ever.

Honing success when learning is a matter of making mistakes, recognizing them and getting past them. Mistakes are like stepping stones to successful honing. Keep at it. It does take time. It took me a month's worth of attempts to find any success, and I was very serious about it.

To make matters worse, I've probably practiced a combined 14-16 hours or more and I have nothing to show for it other than a dull blade. I've decided to give it up until I can find someone in my area who can help teach me. I've done all I know how to do based on all the demonstrations. I've lapped. I've used no pressure. I've kept the blade level. And I've got a butter knife. My hats off to all of you who can do it.

See if you can find someone local if possible. I did and it made all the difference, you can't beat a one on one lesson from someone who is an expert (or at least good) on honing. Go to the member list and then advanced search and type in your area, maybe you will get lucky.

Where do you live?

Honing a razor is a learned skill. Better stated, it's a set of learned skills. You just haven't learned enough of them yet. No big deal.

If it were an art, then I wouldn't be able to do it! I can't paint much of a picture and I can't even draw a conclusion.

It just takes some time and effort. You'll get there sooner than you think if you don't give up.

Rev, keep on gong mate and don't despair.

I'm new to the world of straight razors as well and also have a Norton 4/8k.

I struggled to set an edge on a 4/8k and found that I needed to get a 1k hone as well before I could get any meaningful results on an old Boker I've been playing around with.

I've ended up with a razor which is nowhere near as smooth and as sharp as one that has been professionally honed but it's just a question of time, patience and perseverance.

The learning curve with straights seems, to me, to be far steeper than the learning curve associated with DE razors; I struggle to shave my face with a straight to anywhere near the standard I can get with a DE and currently use a straight on the 25% or so of my head that most DE's struggle with.

I've also nearly destroyed a hanging strop before realising that I get on better with paddle strops and have chipped one razor badly trying to polish it with a Dremel. I know that I will get there one day and I'm pretty sure that you will too.

It might be worth investing in a 1k hone as it made a real difference for me.

Don't give up mate - as they say n the Martial Arts; 'Practice makes permanent'. :)

AJC347 and Rev, if I may. Get Lynn's old CD. He shows how to hone on Nortons in a pyramid. This CD is B.C. (Before Circles!). Look and listen. Go from there and form your own opinions on which way to go. Expand on that! Too many techniques tried at once will nearly always wind up failing. Keep in mind if it does not blow hairs off your arm the entire length of the bevel, you have to go to the 1000 (at least!) until it does before considering the 4000/8000. I feel it impossible to oversharpen on the 1000! I got started that way as I am sure many others have too, I feel it is best to stay with simple stuff and tried and true techniques before experimenting with anything. You need to know how to set a bevel and start over, too! The old ways are good ways, IMHO.
You shall get it. After all, you were smart enough to get the Nortons! ;)

Well finding a mentor is the best idea. To begin with if you have no experience using a hone the first hurdle is going to be developing the muscle memory to hold the razor flat consistently every stroke while maintaining as little pressure as possible. You will find as you learn the less pressure you can exert while maintaining good contact with the stone the finer the edge when finished.

Just holding the razor with consistent contact and angle will be a challenge if you have never done anything similar. Your razor likely needs the bevel set if you haven't worked it on anything more coarse than a 4K.

Without a proper bevel the 4k/8k stone will be difficult to learn. Walking a away for another day is good advice I think we all follow. I would venture to speculate even Lynn has days less than optimal for honing.

Since you have been having no success with the 4k/8k get a stone closer to 1k and start by learning to set your bevel. When you can get the blade scary sharp at 1k (you should be able to strop up your razor and shave with it albeit not with the most comfort) then proceed up the the grits learning each one before moving higher. When you get to 8k you should be able to get a comfortable close shave and then you are ready to move to some kind of finisher.

When you watch videos of Lynn or GSSixgun working on a hone realize the smoothness of stroke you are observing is the result of countless hours of practice.

I hope you hook up with someone locally to work with you.

It just keeps getting better.

Rev

I've been there and I wanted to give up too. Then I got a mentor in afdavis. He answered every question I could think of and met up with me once to teach me one on one. Having his help gave me a huge boost.

I have my own style for honing and I'm having some success now. It just took practice and plenty of failure along the way.

It's not beyond you. Just keep at it.


Michael

Ps. I'd be happy to touch up your razor. Just pm me.

Go to youtube and find the video by gssixgun titled "gssixgun straight razor honing with speedster from srp." A good video for a beginner.

At the beginning I messed up like you did. You can also get overwhelmed if you start reading too much or watching too many videos. There's a lot of great information out there, but at times it can be too much, particularly since it is not all consistent.

What helped me early on was getting a 1k stone. After I had made my blades dull I could not do anything to get them sharp again. So I got a 1k and spent enough time on it to set the bevel, then worked up to the 4k and 8k.

Sometimes, the harder you try at something, particularly when you are new to it, the more frustrated you become. Honing is definitely something that takes practice. I have not seen anyone just pick up a hone and produce a nice shaving razor yet right out of the blocks. The more you push yourself sometimes, the worse the results are. Try walking away until another day when this happens. Also the recommendation to try to sit down with someone who has experience is a good one.

A little patience will go a long way. I still look at every razor as a challenge and I still walk away from some and try again with them the next day even after all the years and razors I have been through. Honing is truly more of a learned art than a science.

Take a step back and stick with it if you can. The rewards will come.

Have fun.

Are you just fooling with the one razor ? What razor, or razors, are you trying to hone ? Some are more difficult than others IME. If you've been using pressure try lightening up. Alternatively if you've been using 'weight of the blade' you may need to add a bit of pressure. In the SRP library you'll find the pyramid technique described. I found that effective for me when I was starting out. I also had plenty of frustration in the beginning and still run into difficult blades sometimes. Anyway, if you've only got one you're messing with I would suggest you look for more razors. IME Solingen full hollows tend to be easier than heavier grinds. One of the reasons so many old time barbers liked them so well. Also, if you are using the 4k as your bevel setter it will take longer to get there no matter who you are.

The most difficult part of learning on your own is not knowing when you are there. If there is any member in your neck of the woods with the skills and the willingness to share them with you that would be a great help. In the meanwhile the aforementioned videos and the SRP library can be a great resource. Eventually, if you keep at it, you will succeed and then go to the next. As Lynn noted, each one can be a challenge not matter how much experience you have. Some are easy as pie and others are a lot of work. Just stay with it and you'll get there.

What happened to the "Local Help" link :shrug:

Anyway Rev, it might help you the most to go to your settings and put in a location, help might be closer then you think...

Lynn and I were just BS'n the other day on the phone about this exact topic, saying that the concept of pressure is probably the hardest thing to convey across the internet..

I also like the vid of Mark/Speedster and trust me it wasn't some thought out production, we came up with the idea about 20 minutes before we did the Vid :) but it is very realistic in that, it was the first time Mark had touched hones... Watching somebody that has 1000's of razors honed is great, for refining your technique, but sometimes watching somebody have the same issues as you are having might actually help more :p Reminds me of when I watch those carpenter vids and shows, and then try to build something myself, and not one damn corner is straight on mine, I want to take the hammer to the TV :(

It will come together, but I agree with Lynn, sometimes you just have to get up and walk away, I know I do...

Hey, Rev.

Your post doesn't show what area you're in, but TBS's recommendation of getting together w/ an experienced person may be the most valuable input you've gotten so far.

If you make it to the Portland, OR metro area - contact me - happy to help. You can try my gear also - so you get a feel for different sizes/grinds of blades.

Should you want a hand w/ the existing blade, let me know. 'Just the cost of a bubblepack envelope and the postage it takes to get it back to you.

It took me 4 years to learn how to hone, which is 6 years faster than it says it takes in historical documentation on the subject. You'd be okay if you cut yourself a little slack.

Its not easy. Most people think its easy, but it's not.

REV

We are chomping at the bit here. Where do you live? We want to make it easy for you.....

Jerry
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Well I don't know about Rev but I'm certainly impressed. So many fellows expressing an earnest desire to help, all of which could have just as easily suggested honing his razor for him instead of the more difficult and less lucrative process of teaching him to hone. Thank you, gentlemen!

Yeah, I'm not going to say anything until Rev pipes up, we're all babbling at him at once! Are we being overly helpful???
So, Rev, where do you live???

Carl

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rev

I purchased a Norton 4k/8k about ten days ago, thinking it was time for me to learn how to hone my own razors. After nine days of practice, lapping, trying to discern the right pressure (or the lack thereof), concentrating on the technique suggested by the videos posted by members of this board, my blade is as dull as a spoon. All I wanted to do was touch up my edge. Now I'm regretting having ever picked up the hone in the first place.

I'm almost to the point of giving up. It appears as though honing is a skill I shall never acquire. Did anyone reach such a low when trying to learn the art?

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You are not alone...

Reread the pyramid method (see the WiKi link above).

Stop lapping.

Start using a magic marker.

Go slow...

Add a hint of your location to your profile perhaps there is
someone close.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

What happened to the "Local Help" link :shrug:



:p Reminds me of when I watch those carpenter vids and shows, and then try to build something myself, and not one damn corner is straight on mine, I want to take the hammer to the TV :(

...

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Glenn, who wants straight corners anyhow:rofl2:

Rev is obviously not intersted in his own salvation. Too bad because so many of us are salivating....

Jerry
____

OK, I'm going 'round his place right now! I think it's time for an intervention. Who's with me? I think we need pizza. And coffee. It's gonna be a long, long night...

I reached this point where you are maybe 5 times until my first 100 honed razor count, so I don't think it is abnormal that you are frustrated :) Take a break wait a few days, choose a honing method, read it a few times. When you are ready, drink a beer, get some good music, and start honing until you are satisfied. Honing is easy, getting really good at it is not, it takes time and practice, as everything out there.

Wow! I am overwhelmed with the response. I live in Charlotte, NC. I sent my blade for a professional honing after realizing I really needed to purchase a 1000 grit stone to set thebevel I ruined, and after my wife vetoed the additional expenditure. Besides, she more or less called me out on my obsession, telling me it had absented me from the children and put me in a foul mood to boot. :)

If someone lives in the area, I'd still like to learn. I have another blade or two I could mar. In all seriousness, I am grateful for your eagerness to help me. My lack of progress has ruined my life.

OK. So. Deep breath. Wife and kids are important. Failing is OK. Everyone fails all the time. Constantly; and without ceasing. You can do this. I've used 1600 grit wet and dry sandpaper at two bucks twenty a sheet to set a bevel. Are you concentrating? No you're not! Multiply that by ten. That's the level of concentration you need. You really need to be in the zone, frustration breeds non-in the zoneness....

Without a proper bevel the 4k/8k stone will be difficult to learn. Walking a away for another day is good advice I think we all follow. I would venture to speculate even Lynn has days less than optimal for honing.


There is much wisdom in these words. There are times when something just isn't right. I don't know what it is, never could figure it out, but sometimes, the stone and the steel just don't wanna work with each other.

later, donv

Quote:

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Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

OK. So. Deep breath. Wife and kids are important. Failing is OK. Everyone fails all the time. Constantly; and without ceasing. You can do this. I've used 1600 grit wet and dry sandpaper at two bucks twenty a sheet to set a bevel. Are you concentrating? No you're not! Multiply that by ten. That's the level of concentration you need. You really need to be in the zone, frustration breeds non-in the zoneness....

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I have to disagree with your assessment concerning my lack of concentration. I'm concentrating so hard I become dizzy when looking away. Am I doing something wrong? Yes; but I doubt it is from a lack of concentration. I think it is from applying uneven pressure on the blade--especially when leading the blade away from me. Anytime I feel a keenness to the blade, when executing another stroke, I blunt it all over again. Rinse and repeat.

I think you're on to something with the difference you state going from away from you on your stroke as opposed to the return stroke. I have to really watch that I don't favor one to the other. Consistency is the key. One bad stroke negates one hundred ninety nine perfect ones. You mention that you can "feel" when you when you're going to mess it up, so, stop one lap sooner.


donv

When you are just starting out to try and hone your own you can get inundated with information on how to do it and it can be contradictory advice too. I have just started trying to hone my own blades too. There is nobody within several hundred miles or more that I know of that can do a one on one. I have a combo stone with similar grit as your Norton. I am just refreshing a bevel that is already there but I have done some blades with a pretty bad bevel, uneven width, small chips and a lot of wear on the spine. They have all, after some perseverance, given me clean comfortable shaves with nominal irritation. Some took several secessions and some turned out better than others. Not the ultimate shaves but very decent. I am not saying this to make you feel bad but to show you it can be done by a beginner with one combo stone. I should also say I use a chromium oxide pasted balsa strop as the last step.

As the others have said, just take it slowly and deliberately, do not feel rushed and walk away when frustrated. I have made a few lines of hand written notes to refer to as I hone and that were taken from the shave wiki here. The edge/bevel, surprisingly, does not have to be absolutely perfect to actually work. To strive for perfection right out of the gate is a good goal but can drive you crazy. I do the best I can and try a test shave. If I am not satisfied it is back to the hones for more of the same and it may take several attempts to get a workable shave. Closing in on perfection takes time. I don't know what else to say except never get obsessive about a hobby to the point where your family feels neglected.

Bob

Like my great uncle Bocephus Beetlejuice used to say: "find out what you dont do good, then dont do it".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rev

Wow! I am overwhelmed with the response. I live in Charlotte, NC. I sent my blade for a professional honing after realizing I really needed to purchase a 1000 grit stone to set thebevel I ruined, and after my wife vetoed the additional expenditure. Besides, she more or less called me out on my obsession, telling me it had absented me from the children and put me in a foul mood to boot. :)

If someone lives in the area, I'd still like to learn. I have another blade or two I could mar. In all seriousness, I am grateful for your eagerness to help me. My lack of progress has ruined my life.

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Okay Rev this isn't good. Family and particularly children come first. Next have fun if it is ruining your life you are doing it wrong.

Third PM me your address and I will PIF you a bevel setting stone and do my best to answer whatever questions arise while you are learning.

It really does just keep getting better.

Jim

You can hone all day on 1k but if you hone uneven then it won't work.

Rev, you are 100 percent right about what you need to work on. Make the blade sit flat in both directions. Look up magic marker test and use that.

Many of us have wives and kids. That doesn't mean we can't take a little time for ourselves. Just be considerate and take a break once in a while!

Michael

Actually, getting away from honing and taking breaks from it can be helpful. Repetition is what improves one's skills. If you keep at something and generate frustration, that may be persistence, but it isn't 'repetition'. Repetition logically requires stopping, doing something else for a while and then coming back to what you were doing. You will be surprised how you learn more during the breaks than you were learning just grinding away. Often, during those breaks, you'll come up with a new idea or way of looking at things that can really be helpful and improve your honing. I always learned more about honing and improved my skills when I was thinking about it than when I was actually doing it.